Talk:Newton Scamander
Headmaster? Can we really say that Newt Scamander's status as a former headmaster is canon? It may be implied in the movie, but it never is in the books, and the timing does not make sense. If Scamander was born in 1897, that makes him younger than Albus Dumbledore and (presumably) Armando Dippet, the two previous headmasters. According to this wiki, Dippet became headmaster in 1925, and was succeeded by Dumbledore in 1956; these dates correspond to the timeline implied in the books. When would Scamander's tenure possibly have occurred? Akwdb 00:51, 2 July 2009 (UTC) :Immediately before Dippett's. When Dippett became Head of Hogwarts, Scamander was 28 and, as far as we know it, his tenure might have only last one or two years. -- [[User:Seth Cooper|'Seth Cooper']] ([[User talk:Seth Cooper|'Owl Post']]) 01:03, 2 July 2009 (UTC) ::Under our canon policy, information from the movies is considered canon, as long as it does not directly contradict the books. I don't recall exactly where in the books it's stated that Dumbledore was appointed immediately after Dippet, but if this is the case, then Newt still could have been Headmaster before either of them, if he was appointed young and served a short tenure like Snape. ★ Starstuff (Owl me!) 01:13, 2 July 2009 (UTC) :::Yap. It is not likely he served as Headmaster before 1918 (he was working at the Ministry and was unhappy at his payment, which would not happen if he received two paychecks). His book was published after Dippet was appointed, BUT he might have stopped his expeditions some years before it was published and settled in Britain to compile the information he retrieved and write the other sections of the book (apart from the A-Z of Magical Creatures). He might have been Head during this pre-publishing time. This, of course, if he didn't serve as an Head between Dippett and Dumbledore. -- [[User:Seth Cooper|'Seth Cooper']] ([[User talk:Seth Cooper|'Owl Post']]) 01:24, 2 July 2009 (UTC) ::::It is implied throughout the books that Dumbledore served directly after Dippet, and Dippet is referred to as Dumbledore's "predecessor" at least twice (in Order of the Phoenix and The Tales of Beedle the Bard). If Dippet started in 1925, the timeline that makes the most sense to me is that he directly succeeded Phineas Nigellus Black, whom we know died in 1926. I guess there's no direct contradiction, but I'm still highly skeptical of this. Perhaps someone will ask JKR to clarify the Headmaster succession at some point... Akwdb 17:22, 30 July 2009 (UTC) :::::Of course, I think Rowling doesn't consider him a Head. If he was, I don't think Rowling would left that out of his Biogrpahy on Fantastic Beasts, but she hasn't denied it. So, for the time being he can be considered a Head. -- [[User:Seth Cooper| Seth Cooper ]][[User talk:Seth Cooper| owl post!]] 17:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC) ::::::But how could Scamander be a headmaster? In Deathly Hallows, Snape does not recieve a picture in the Headmaster's office because he left the position before he died. Scamander has not died yet, and so it would be impossible for him to be honored in that form. --Parodist 11:25, 27 August 2009 (UTC) :::::::Snape did not imediately recieve a portrait because he abandoned his position, wheras Scamander presumably retired legitimately. Jayden Matthews 15:02, 27 August 2009 (UTC) ::::::::That is confirmed in OotP, where Dumbledore's portrait doesn't appear in the Head's Tower after he ran away from the Ministry. -- [[User:Seth Cooper| Seth Cooper ]][[User talk:Seth Cooper| owl post!]] 00:20, September 18, 2009 (UTC) :::::::::Yes, but Dumbledore's portrait would not need to appear, because he already has one in the office, as seen in the Chamber of Secrets film. --Parodist 01:05, September 18, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::::He has two, in fact. One on the small chamber behind the desk and one with all the other Heads. But they are non-canonical, as HBP says: ::::::::::A new portrait; this seems to exclude that there was already a portrait of AD. -- [[User:Seth Cooper| Seth Cooper ]][[User talk:Seth Cooper| owl post!]] 01:33, September 18, 2009 (UTC) :::::::::But wait a minute... the ranks of the '''dead' headmasters and headmistresses''. Hmmmm. Should this mean Scamander wasn't a Head? -- [[User:Seth Cooper| Seth Cooper ]][[User talk:Seth Cooper| owl post!]] 01:46, September 18, 2009 (UTC) :::::::::Perhaps. However, it would be possible that the portrait appearing after his death was his official portrait as headmaster, and that the portrait of him that was already there was simply a personal item. It was in the chamber behind his desk that seems to be used as sleeping quarters. --Parodist 11:21, September 18, 2009 (UTC) Bumping. We really have to reconsider on the canonicity of the claim that Newt was a Headmaster from the quote above. -- [[User:Seth Cooper| Seth Cooper ]][[User talk:Seth Cooper| owl post!]] 15:50, November 15, 2009 (UTC) :Does the portrait actually identify him specifically as Newt? From what I can tell, it just says "N. Scamander." I think, the film-makers definitely intended for him to be the Professor, but there's always the slightest chance that N. is a relative of Newt's. ----Parodist (Send me an Owl) 21:43, December 8, 2009 (UTC) Harry's copy of FB, which was reprinted for a muggle version, was bought in 1991, and the Portrait is shown in 1992. Conclusion: He died between September 1991 and December 1992, and returned as a ghost (or in another form) to visit the castle. Just like fellow headmaster Amberose Swott did.--Rodolphus 13:07, July 27, 2010 (UTC) :But how would that explain Newt's dates in COS/g? -- [[User:Seth Cooper| Seth Cooper ]][[User talk:Seth Cooper| owl post!]] 13:29, July 27, 2010 (UTC) In this case, the game contradicts the film and is not cannon. Or the card could have been released before the death or has not yet been updated. I tend to say the first is right.--Rodolphus 13:33, July 27, 2010 (UTC) Bumping--Rodolphus 09:06, July 28, 2010 (UTC) :Makes sense. If no one has any objections, I'll add it to the article. -- [[User:Seth Cooper| Seth Cooper ]][[User talk:Seth Cooper| owl post!]] 14:12, July 28, 2010 (UTC) Should we add it now?--Rodolphus 08:55, July 29, 2010 (UTC) Harry's copy of Fantastic Beasts may have been bought in 1991, but it contains obvious annotations (such as those in the Horntail, mermaid, and Leprechaun entries) that wouldn't have been made until the trio's fourth year, so in 1994-1995. Since the foreward was written by Dumbledore around the time he borrowed Harry's book for publication, it can be assumed that Scamander was still alive at that point; otherwise, the "About the Author" section would have been changed. 01:16, September 8, 2011 (UTC) Nick :Still, it might have been an outdated edition that Harry, Ron and Hermione doodled all over. Their doodles were clearly added sometime after the book's publication. -- [[User:Seth Cooper| Seth Cooper ]][[User talk:Seth Cooper| owl post!]] 01:28, September 8, 2011 (UTC) :So somewhere between the ages of 21-28, he served as Headmaster ---I don't think so. Look at the style of dress in the portrait-- it's not 20th century. :Based on the About The Author in FB, Scamander would have first attended Hogwarts in 1908, (assuming he was 11 at the time), and would have graduated in 1915. It then says "He joined the Ministry of Magic in the Dept. for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures. After two years at the Office for House-Elf Relocation, years he described as 'tedious in the extreme,' he was transferred to the Beast Division, where his prodigious knowledge of bizarre magical animals ensured his rapid promotion." So, we know that he was working at M.O.M. at least during 1917, and if he was being promoted, it seems likely that he would have stayed for at least a few years. :Then it says: "Although almost solely responsible for the cration of the Werewolf Register in 1947... Ban on Experimental Breeing, passed in 1965". Those kinds of changes dont happen overnight, so he would have needed to be working on them for at least 5-10 years, which would be hard to do if he was working as a Professor or Headmaster at Hogwarts. And it doesnt seem that the Ministry would have been too happy to allow him to take a break for a few years, work at Hogwarts, and then come back. Furthermore, if he was at Hogwarts from 1918 to 1937 (assuming 10 years of working on the Werewolf Register), he would have only been teaching for a few years, and it seems highly unlikely that he would have been given the job with only 19 years at Hogwarts. Assuming Dumbeldore became a Professor soon after his break-up with Grinderwald, and that he was Headmaster right after Dippet, in 1955, he would have been working at Hogwarts for at least 55 years prior to being Headmaster, assuming he broke up with Grinderwald in 1900. Finally, there is the way that Scamader is written about in FB: "Mr. Scamader", not "Professor Scamader". If Scamader had been Headmaster before Dumbledore, who was working at Hogwarts 3 years after Scamader was born. Dr. Galenos (talk) 16:16, January 27, 2014 (UTC) Hogwarts visit It is possible that Newt visit Hogwarts to ask Dumbledore writing the introduction of his book?Pol 871 18:14, July 5, 2010 (UTC) Hogwarts School Years Hi, this is my first post on here, so if I do something wrong, please point it out. I was wondering about the Hogwarts school years on this page. It says "From 1908 to 1916, he attended Hogwarts." If he started Hogwarts in 1908, and Hogwarts is a 7 year school, his last year would have been 1915, not 1916. That is, of course, unless he failed a year. Is there an explanation, or is it just a mistake/typo? Deathislife2011 09:36, January 17, 2012 (UTC) :That's correct. To put it another way, he attended Hogwarts from the 1908-1909 school year to the 1915-1916 school year. Get it? -- 1337star (Owl Post) 17:49, January 17, 2012 (UTC) :: I understand that. His school years would be as follows: :: :: 1908-1909: First Year :: 1909-1910: Second Year :: 1910-1911: Third Year :: 1911-1912: Fourth Year :: 1912-1913: Fifth Year :: 1913-1914: Sixth Year :: 1914-1915: Seventh Year :: :: Following this logic, he never went to school during the 1915-1916 school year. :: Deathislife2011 11:51, January 18, 2012 (UTC) :::Yeah, that's pretty rock solid. If it still says 1916 on the page, I'll remove it. ProfessorTofty 04:59, January 23, 2012 (UTC) ::::Thanks. I was just browsing and I noticed that his years seemed off. Thanks for fixing it. Deathislife2011 18:42, January 23, 2012 (UTC) Headmaster, revisited Newton Scamander as Headmaster of Hogwarts simply cannot be considered canon, as I've recently realised. In the introduction of Fantastic Beasts, Dumbledore clearly states that he got Scamander's (and specifically Newt Scamander's, not his estate's) permission to publish FB in a "vandalised" state, with Harry and co.'s comments intact. The comments refer to events from Goblet of Fire, therefore, Scamander must still have been alive by that time. -- 1337star (Drop me a line!) 17:23, January 5, 2014 (UTC) :It's never explicitly stated their portrait is hung upon their death and only then, simply that it is painted before they die. It's possible that Scamander retired before his death, and that he had his portrait hung before he died, and that he was indeed Headmaster. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 17:27, January 5, 2014 (UTC) ::"So all the portraits you see in the headmaster's study are all headmasters and mistresses who died, it's like British royals. You only get good press if you die in office." -- 1337star (Drop me a line!) 17:33, January 5, 2014 (UTC) :::Sorry, I hadn't heard about that ... so Scamander wouldn't have been Headmaster after all. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 17:35, January 5, 2014 (UTC) Main picture Since the main picture is that of the Headmaster portrait, which is non-canon, could we not use the picture of a young Newt Scamander studying the Hippogriff or the one from his chocolate frog card instead? Ninclow 20:21, April 11, 2015 (UTC) :The main image will probably changed to one from the Fantastic Beasts film when one becomes available. I think the current image is fine until then. -- 1337star (Drop me a line!) 18:46, April 13, 2015 (UTC) :::So by this point in time the picture on this article has been changed, but the one on the main page hasn't. I don't have access to editing the main page, so I can't do anything about it. I think I'll discuss this on the main page and see where I get a response from sooner. Olivia Graves (talk) 00:24, August 19, 2016 (UTC) Son? Should we really assume that Newt had a son? It is possible for a husband to take his wife's surname. Also she can keep her maiden surname, even evidenced in canon by Minerva, Hermione and Luna. Any children would be possible to have either the mother's or the father's last name. If I´m informed right,.it's left for the parents to decide. So, we can´t rule out that Newt had a daughter, in my opinion and should change it to just "child" in the infobox. --Rodolphus (talk) 06:06, August 22, 2015 (UTC) Main image Given he wasn´t headmaster, and thus his Portrait is not canon, should we not change the main image to the rescently releasd one from the Fantastic Beasts film? Though he is only 29 in this film.--Rodolphus (talk) 10:23, November 8, 2015 (UTC) :I agree that we should replace it with a picture from the film. -- Saxon 20:21, December 7, 2015 (UTC) Any suggestions for a new main image, then?--Rodolphus (talk) 17:23, December 27, 2015 (UTC) Former headmaster A portrait labelled "Newt Scamander" was featured in the Headmaster's office in the Chamber of Secrets film. This couldn't have been the Newt Scamander of Fantastic Beasts fame because J. K. Rowling has stated that all portraits at Hogwarts are of dead people, and we can deduce from the real-world Fantastic Beasts book that Newt couldn't have died before 1997, since it features an introduction by Albus Dumbledore. We also learn in the latest trailer for the Fantastic Beasts movie that Newt was expelled from Hogwarts. That doesn't preclude him ever teaching at Hogwarts (Rubeus Hagrid, the only other known Hogwarts expellee, became a Care of Magical Creatures professor, after all) but it does make it seem unlikely that he would ever become headmaster. I'm thus wondering whether we should treat the "Newt Scamander" portrait in the Headmaster's office in the CoS film as completely non-canon, or evidence of another wizard named "Newt Scamander?" ★ Starstuff (Owl me!) 19:46, April 11, 2016 (UTC) :I've been looking at this too (see Talk:Scamander family). For all the reasons given there, I am inclined to believe the portrait is of a Scamander ancestor that was Headmaster. However, I recently ran across this flip-through of The Paintings of Hogwarts: https://youtu.be/vbBzZOy4FSY?t=504 :If you pause at 8:24 the Scamander portrait is detailed as: :Professor Newton "Newt: Artemis Fido Scamander :Order of Merlin Second Class :There is some additional text under this that isn't visible, but everything lines up with magizoologist Newt b.1897 . If a lucky someone has this book, hopefully they can fill in any extra details. From this info we can establish that he taught, but are still left with this portrait of a dead former headmaster in CoS, but no date of death on his Frog Card or the Timeline, Mr. Newt Scamander's agreement in the FB intro allowing his book to be printed with HP's notes, and being listed as retired in Dorset in the same edition of this book. How to reconcile all this seems very tricky... --Ironyak1 (talk) 20:05, April 25, 2016 (UTC) Headmaster public at that time ? Headmaster public at that time had chased Scamander from Hogwarts ? Phineas Nigellus Black Is it not so? Invisibility 12:16, April 14, 2016 (UTC) : Possibly, but not for certain. Phineas Nigellus Black was likely headmaster sometime after 1876 (when Headmistress Mole had to negotiate with Peeves) and his death in 1925, but there may be other unknown Heads of Hogwarts during this time as well. Phineas may also have served after his schooling finished around 1865 up to 1876, but this seems less likely given his young age. Who was Head of Hogwarts during Scamanders possible time there (1908-1915) is unknown IMHO Ironyak1 (talk) 12:49, April 14, 2016 (UTC) : Pure speculation, but based on Phineas Nigellus' character, we should not be too shocked if he only lasted a very short time in office. Either by being forced out, or resigning after having to deal with teenagers. A point in his favor as the one who expelled Scamander is that according to the FB book, Scamander graduated from Hogwarts, which would imply that his expulsion was eventually revoked. It is much more likely that a headmaster would revoke the decision of his predecesor if that predecessor was ... eccentric... like P.N. Black. (As I believe we understand it, to have a potrait in the headmaster's office, the individual must have bene a legitimate headmaster, not abandoned the office, and be dead. I don't believe there is any cnaon that the individual must have died in office as headmaster.) Wva (talk) 04:55, April 15, 2016 (UTC) ::: All interesting points and very possible. Unfortunately, our knowledge of the Heads of Hogwarts and the dates of their terms has many gaps and unknowns (especially compared to the Minister for Magic timeline for instance). Perhaps someone has a copy of Hogwarts a History laying about? (where is Hermione or @jk_rowling when you need her? ;) Ironyak1 (talk) 16:29, April 15, 2016 (UTC) ::: But Phineas Nigellus Black is the most likely, know where to be. Only one person knew it was J. K. Rowling and Who can log sign then it into Rowling on Twitter asked her to complete. Invisibility 14:44, April 14, 2016 (UTC) : That's an interesting question - is anyone (maybe an admin or @Official_HPWiki) on good enough terms with @jk_rowling that she might answer which Headmaster was responsible for Newt's expulsion? (she seems to have ignored others (e.g. https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/719550328828522496) but it's worth a shot? Ironyak1 (talk) 04:04, April 15, 2016 (UTC) :(e.g. https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/719550328828522496) I do not see all extraneous to this problem. Invisibility 06:31, April 15, 2016 (UTC) : I'm not sure, but I insisted 70% Headmaster Phineas Nigellus Black principals chased Scamander from Hogwarts. Invisibility 16:12, April 25, 2016 (UTC) :I was looking through Twitter and several people have asked her directly which headmaster may have expelled Newt, but she did not reply. Example 1 :Example 2 :Given the timing, PN Black is the most likely candidate, but not certain, so the wording would have to be very vague ie "Newt was expelled from Hogwarts, perhaps by Phineas Nigellus Black who was likely headmaster at the time." Do people feel this is too speculative or not? --Ironyak1 (talk) 20:22, April 25, 2016 (UTC) Not everyone answers quickly where, have to wait for some time already. Invisibility 03:49, April 26, 2016 (UTC) Hogwarts Expulsion? Hi, This is the first time posting something so im sorry if i did something wrong. I saw the "Fantastic Beasts..." (movie), and later I was looking through 'Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them' (Book, Not the Screen Play), when i noticed at the back of the book it had a section on Newt Scamander. Here it said "He was born... Upon graduation from Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, Mr. Scamander joined the Ministry of Magic in the department for the Regulation and controll of magical creatures." This however, does not match my undestanding of "Fantastic Beasts ... "(Movie), where it says he was expelled. And on his article on this wiki it says he was expelled as well. Please correct me if I am wrong or have missed something. Thanks, Leo2468 (talk) 15:55, November 20, 2016 (UTC) :In the Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them book written by Rowling in 2001, the "About the Author" section does indeed say Newt graduated from Hogwarts. The 2016 Fantastic Beasts movie, however, says Newt was expelled from Hogwarts for endangering a human life with a beast (or something like that), and Rowling clarified that Newt took the blame for something someone else did. Albus Dumbledore was also noted to have argued strongly against Newt's expulsion. :It's possible Rowling changed her mind sometime in the last 15 years about Newt, or from an in-universe perspective, that Newt or Dumbledore (whoever wrote the "About the Author" section of the book) wasn't completely honest about Newt's time at Hogwarts. :As the Fantastic Beasts movie/screenplay was written by Rowling and is more recent than the book, it appears this is the more canon source, and therefore that we're assuming Newt was indeed expelled. Cheers! --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 03:50, November 21, 2016 (UTC) :There is not necessarily a contradiction between the two facts. It is possible that he was expelled in his 6th or 7th year, and having previously completed his OWL's, is considered to have "graduated" from Hogwarts. Since the original trio did not attend their 7th year, we don't have a perfectly explicit definition of what it means to have graduated from Hogwarts. In other words, are Harry Potter and Ron Weasley considered Hogwarts graduates? Based on what we know of 7th years leaving Hogwarts in the boats, it would seem that you have to finish the 7th year to be considered a graduate. But we cannot say that for certain, and if students who leave after their OWLs are considered graudates, then everything wrt Scamander is solved. The other potential solution is that Scamander was in fact expelled, was considered ot have NOT graduated, but at a later date he was given an "honorary degree" and/or the expulstion was reversed thus making him a "Hogwart's Graduate." Wva (talk) 22:56, November 21, 2016 (UTC) :Now it suddenly says: :In 1913, one of Leta's experiments involving a Jarvey went too far and endangered the life of a student. Rather than see his good friend expelled, Newt took the blame and was sentenced to be expelled from Hogwarts in her place. However, Albus Dumbledore, Newt's Transfiguration teacher at the time, argued strongly on his behalf and cleared his name. The expulsion was never enforced." :This is - silly. What the hecks going on? Either he was expelled or he wasn't, you can't have it both ways. There is two ways of seeing this: Either we must ask ourselves what is most canonically accurate; Rowling's screenplay or a movie prop. OR, alternatively, it could be two different yet similar incident of Newt's own making, the first in which Dumbledore successfully kept him from being expelled, with a second one taking place where he took the fall for Leta Lestrange and Newt, having "not learned from his mistakes", was expelled. :Ninclow (talk) 04:03, December 13, 2016 (UTC) ::The movie prop is designed by MinaLima Design who checks with JKR when designing their props. Just like how we know Tina's birthdate and middle name via a movie prop, we known Newt's punishment was expulsion, but that it was never enforced. Perhaps Dumbledore argued on Newt's behalf after the punishment was decided (as a Transfiguration teacher and possible head of Gryffindor, he is unlikely to have been directly involved with deciding the punishment for a magical beast incident involving a Hufflepuff student). Perhaps Leta's guilt was uncovered by Dumbledore so Newt's expulsion was overturned. Whatever the case, the prop info is canon unless a higher source contradicts it. --Ironyak1 (talk) 04:52, December 13, 2016 (UTC) ::That may be, but isn't Rowling's screenplay, where a character possessing Newt's file expressively states; "You were kicked out of Hogwarts" higher canon? I mean, if the expulsion wasn't enforced, logic dictates Newt would have protested when "Graves" brought it up and said he was. Why admit to being expelled if it wasn't the case? This is why I think this are two separate, yet similar incidents. Ninclow (talk) 05:50, December 13, 2016 (UTC) :::The prop is the file "Graves" is reading during the interrogation so everyone is talking about the same incident. It is Direct Communication from the Ministry of Magic, London and the Notes say "Proposed expulsion from Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry...". Also Newt does protest: ::: ::::GRAVES: You were thrown out of Hogwarts for endangering human life— ::::NEWT: That was an accident! ::::GRAVES: —with a beast. Yet one of your teachers argued strongly against your expulsion. Now, what makes Albus Dumbledore so fond of you? :::Regardless of how GG choose to phrase it, Newt was sentenced to expulsion, but it was not enforced as "Dumbledore defended Newton resulting in his name being cleared". I think a parallel situation is how Trelawney was thrown out of Hogwarts by Umbridge, but ultimately didn't leave due to Dumbledore stepping in. --Ironyak1 (talk) 07:48, December 13, 2016 (UTC)